The Fates - 3rd Anniversary Special

It's our 3rd anniversary! To celebrate, here's a special on The Fates from across the world, divining our fate in most ancient cultures. What do the Fates represent? Why are the other gods so frightened of them? Find out this week!

Transcript

INTRO:
Hello and welcome to Myth Monsters, my name is Erin and I’ll be your host for these little snack bite size podcasts on folklore and mythical monsters from around the world. 

These podcasts focus on the actual cryptids, folklore and mythic monsters from global mythology, rather than focusing on full stories of heroes and their big adventures.

I’ll also be dropping in some references that they have to recent culture and where you can see these represented in modern day content so you can learn more, and get as obsessed as I am about these absolute legends of the mythological world.

It’s been another year of Myth Monsters if you can believe it! I can’t, it is absolutely insane. The fact that I’m still able to do this and have an audience that is growing every day is just amazing. Thank you all for continuing or joining on this journey with me and I promise to bring many more monsters your way. So far, we’ve got 141 episodes in over 120 countries and nearly 100,000 downloads - but we’ve got more to go!

I do have a surprise for you that I’ve been alluding to for the last few weeks, and to make things fun - I’ll leave it to the end of the episode for you to find out what it is.

DESCRIPTION:                                                                                                                                                                                                              

But let’s get into this, what are we talking about for this 3rd anniversary special? Destiny has already told us, but it’s the Fates. Where are they from exactly? Well, that’s a more difficult question to answer.

When we think of the Fates, most people think of the Greek goddesses, which is technically true and it is usually the associated mythology we’re talking about when we’re talking about the Fates. However, there are Fates or Fate type gods within other mythologies that we’re going to cover in this episode. 

So because of this, I’m going to go into each one in their own mythos rather than talking about the Fates as a whole. The only thing that all of these have in common is that they are always women and have the power over divinity and the fate of all humans. They also have the utmost respect of the Gods, which is interesting considering their lower god status. We’re going to go over these in Greek, Roman, Norse and Baltic mythology, so buckle in.

We talked about the Greek Fates first so let’s talk about them. They were called the Moirai in Greek and were represented by three sisters, Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos or the spinner, the allotter and the inevitable. Clotho spun the thread of life onto a spindle, Lachesis measured it and would determine the length of the life with her measuring rod and Clotho was the cutter. She would also choose the manner of each person’s death, cutting it with a pair of shears. 

There’s not much in regards to how they look but it is believed that they are depicted as the stages of life, with Clotho as a permanently nine-month pregnant woman, Lachesis as a middle aged woman and Atropos as an old crone, wearing a hooded black cloak. They would spend their days spinning, measuring and cutting - but they also had the beck and call of the Erinyes, the Furies and goddesses of vengeance to finish off mortals who had committed grievous sin such as familicide, murder, jealousy, xenia and anger. I’ll get into why later.

Hopping over very similarly to Roman mythology, where the Fates are called Parcae and we’re talking about Nona, Decima and Morta. They did the same thing as the Greek Fates, spinning thread and recording mortal lives - and the Roman gods were actively afraid of the power that the Fates had, because they could also predict and end the lives of gods and their children. These sisters could be seen with items that pertain to their roles, such as thread for Nona, an eye glass for Decima and Morta with her life ending scissors. 

Now heading north to the Norse mythology world, we have the Norns. They’re a bit different to our spinners, and their job was to water the great world tree, Yggdrasil, to stop it from rotting away. They were described not as gods, but as Jotun, which were frost giants from the realm of Jotunheim, and serve the Jotun gods. This meant they were massively tall and generally pretty powerful and their names were Urth, Verthandi and Skuld. 

By looking after the world tree, they protected all life in the Norse realms by allowing the tree to do the divining for them. They were known to show up at the birth of a child though if you were lucky and the child had a blessed life ahead of them. 

We’ll jump over to the Baltics now, which counts as some of the countries in Eastern Europe such as Latvia and Lithuania. In this mythos, there was technically only one goddess of Fate - Laima, who was also linked to childbirth, marriage and death, as well as the patron of pregnancy. She and her two sisters, Karta and Dekla were the Fate sisters we know - and they would look after each part of the person’s life, with Dekla looking after children, Karta over adulthood and Laima over the elderly. 

They were very often referred to as the three Laima, so it’s debated whether this might mean they’re all just copies of the one goddess. Lamia were also often mixed up with Laime who is the god of good fortune, Dalia, the god of fate and Gilitine, the god of death. However, the three Laima were known for giving contradictory information - leaving some people’s lives in the balance with irreversible prophecies.

ORIGIN:

So this will be a little different than our usual structure for origin and history this week, and I’ll be covering them in the same mythology location chunks about their etymology, history and any stories rather than doing it section by section by monster.

I’ll do them in the same order though, so we’ll start with the Greek. Moirai in ancient Greek means destinies, apportioned or lots, which comes from the root word meros and moros, meaning fate and doom and their names are all just linked to what they do. Clotho means spinner, Lachesis means allotter and Atropos means inevitable.

They are considered to be the children of the Greek goddess of the night, Nyx, and literally born from the dark. This makes them sisters of the Erinyes, which is why I said I’d come back to them - as well as the god of death, Thanatos & Nemesis, the goddess of retribution just to name the most famous of their siblings. In other tellings, they were the children of Zeus, king of the gods and the Titaness Themis, who was the embodiment of law and order, therefore they were then sisters of Eunomia, god of lawful order, Dike, god of justice and Eirene, god of peace. 

We know they exist from ancient Greek writers such as Homer, Hesiod, Plato and Asychlus who were all around in about 650 BC in the Greek golden age. The Fates have made their way into many different myths, including that of the Fall of Troy, when Apollo, god of light, warns Patroclus, the soldier, not to sack Troy as he was ‘over his portion’ - which lead to Patroclus falling in battle. Patroclus was also involved in another one’s fate, that of Sarpedon, one of Zeus’ children and a demigod. Zeus was told that Sarpedon would fall to Patroclus’ blade, and yet could do nothing to stop it. 

This is very similar in the Roman tellings of the Parcae. Although, Parcae doesn’t seem to have a translation into English - just into the Greek Moirai, which makes sense with the overlap between the two cultures. Nona means ninth, Decima , tenth and Morta very literally means death. Again, we don’t have a definitive date on when they came into history, but the same Greek poets wrote about them in the same context as the Moirai, within the same myths. 

A big difference is the lasting culture; in Roman religion, Nona would determine the person’s lifespan on their dies lustricus, which is the day that the child was named, and always occurred on the ninth day from birth for a boy, and the eighth for a girl. We’re not sure why the difference for the genders, however, it meant that the babies were almost safe from fate for the first eight or nine days before the Fates decide what to do with them. 

Now let's head over to the Norns, which we believe comes from the Old Norse meaning to twine, however is sometimes debated to be from the Swedish word norna meaning to communicate secretly, which is my favourite. Their names are Urth meaning fate, Verthandi meaning to become and Skuld meaning that which should become or needs to occur. They came from the Poetic Edda, which are pieces of poetry and prose from around the 10th century - meaning they do go far back, not as far as the Greek and Roman, but still very old. 

We actually have a great example of them doing their thing, which is in an extract from the Edda itself, this is in reference to the dragon Fafnir who is dying after getting stabbed by the hero Sigmund;

"Tell me then, Fafnir,

for wise thou art famed,

And much thou knowest now:

Who are the Norns

who are helpful in need,

And the babe from the mother bring?"

Fafnir spake:

"Of many births

the Norns must be,

Nor one in race they were;

Some to gods, others

to elves are kin,

And Dvalin's daughters some."

This is just one example of the Norns throughout the Edda, such as them appearing, but we also have one of them being described; 

Thence come the maidens

mighty in wisdom,

Three from the dwelling

down 'neath the tree;

Urth is one named,

Verthandi the next,--

On the wood they scored,--

and Skuld the third.

Laws they made there,

and life allotted

To the sons of men,

and set their fates.

Lastly, let’s talk about the Baltic goddesses, Laima, where there isn’t actually much information unfortunately. Baltic mythology is quite a tricky one to find information on, as it’s just not as popular or commonly translated into English, which means it’s a struggle to find content on them. However, what we do know about Laima is that she’ll go back to before the Christianisation of the Baltics in the 15th century, making her possibly our most recent Fate goddess. 

There were rituals for her up til the 19th century, with women offering livestock, towels or woven fabric and materials to her to ease childbirth or pregnancy pains. It was forbidden for a man to take part in these rituals, and so it was performed in a sauna with only women present, which sounds pretty good if you ask me. It’s also said that Laima was the original creator and birther of mankind, which is within the Lithuanian version of the Great Flood myth. 

What we know with all of the interpretations of fate is that they were made to represent the stages of life; birth, age and death. They are the natural order of the world in humanoid form, with power that even the gods cannot control, as no one has the power over fate.

We do actually have a few other Fate goddesses throughout other mythologies, such as Maat from Egyptian mythology who was the goddess of truth, order and harmony, as well as regulating the stars, seasons and mortal behaviour - hence her link to the Fates. She is one of the pivotal gods to witness the weighing of the heart ceremony upon their descent into the Underworld, as the feather that the person’s heart was weighed against was one of hers. This determined what kind of afterlife they would have, either into the Duat or Underworld or having their heart eaten by Ammit - destined to walk in shame for their afterlife. She is a chthonic goddess realistically, and this is one of her most important jobs - so I thought we should at least do a little shout out.

We also have Hutena and Hutellura from Hurrian mythology, which is some of the middle east and we’ve not really ventured into yet. Hutena and Hutellura are the two goddesses of fate and midwifery from this part of the world, and are interesting because there are still two of them, making them fit a little better into our Fates criteria. They also lived in the underworld as chthonic goddesses, and looked over the fate of people from there. They were often blamed for early deaths or disease, as it was considered diving wrath whenever there were deaths or illness affecting a whole community, and only fair to blame the goddesses of fate. The really cool thing about these two is that they were responsible for the shaping of the foetus during pregnancy as well as predetermining their fate, which is quite cool and hands on. 

Lastly, we have the Matres or Matronae from Celtic mythology - so little is known about these deities, but we know they were from around the 5th century AD and they were always mentioned in groups of three. We’re not sure of their names or their tasks, but we know that they would usually be responsible for childbirth and motherhood, as they would be depicted with children and holding baskets of overflowing fruit, wrapped in snakes whilst wearing large headdresses. We assume because of all this imagery, they are goddesses of maidenhood, fertility, the underworld and fate - and we know they were also worshipped with animal sacrifice and burning incense in larger temples, but didn’t have any specifically dedicated to them, making them what we believe to be lesser deities - but don’t tell them that. 

If you did want to find some temples that were dedicated to Fate goddesses, Greece was the place to be - as there were plenty across Thebes and Sparta back in the day in Ancient Corinth. There are also three asteroids named after Clotho, Lechesis and Atropos - which were discovered in 1868, so that’s fun too.

This trope is also most likely responsible for the Three Sisters trope, which of course we saw popularised in MacBeth by Shakespeare, but still continues in media today which leads us into it quite nicely.

CULTURAL SIGNIFICANCE: 

We’ve got a few things for the Fates themselves this week - but not enough to fill this out so I’ve also popped in the other trope they fall into which is the Three Weird Sisters trope - so I’ve peppered these in too.

For art, have a look at The Three Fates by Paul Thumann, The Triumph of Death from 1520, The Night of Enitharmon's Joy by William Blake from 1795, The Norns by Johannes Gehrts from 1889, The Norns Urðr, Verðandi, and Skuld under the world oak Yggdrasil by Ludwig Burger by 1882, Die Helden Und Götter Des Nordens by Amalia Schoppe from 1832. Sorry, there are two more I have to mention which are The Three Parcae by Marco Bigio from 1540 and The Three Parcae Spinning the Fate of Marie de' Medici by Peter Paul Rubens from 1622 for all their portraits - but there are some awesome and creepy independent bits out there for this monster too.

In movies, we have; Hercules, Intolerance, The Craft, Maleficent, The Witches of Eastwick, Percy Jackson & The Lightning Thief, Oz The Great and Powerful, Throne of Blood, Hocus Pocus, The Wizard of Oz, Shrek, The Black Cauldron & Sleeping Beauty.

For TV, we have; Blood of Zeus, Oh My Goddess!, American Gods, The Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power, Witches of East End, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Demon Slayer, Ulysses 31, The Legend of Vox Machina, Black Clover, Doctor Who, Motherland: Fort Salem, Supernatural, Hercules: The Animated Series, Percy Jackson & The Lightning Thief, Cyberchase, Criminal Minds, The Simpsons, Steven Universe, Gargoyles, Once Upon a Time, Winx Club, Black Adder, Free Spirit, Kamen Rider Gotchard, Iron Fist, Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, Are You Afraid of the Dark? & Legends of Tomorrow.

In video games, we have ones such as; World of Warcraft, King’s Raid, Shin Megami Tensei, God of War 1, 2 & Ragnarok, Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy X-2, Loom, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, Fallen London, King’s Quest 7: The Princeless Bride, The Legend of Zelda & Warriors Orochi.

My book recommendation this week is Greek Mythology: The Gods, Goddesses, and Heroes Handbook by fellow podcaster Liv Albert for the Greek, The Romans And Their Gods by R M Ogilvie for the Romans and lastly, Norse Gods and Goddesses: Guide to Understanding Scandinavian Deities and the Viking Religion by Ingvar Askelson for the Norse.

DO I THINK THEY EXISTED? 

Now it’s time for, do I think they existed?

Well this one is difficult for me because I am a Hellenic Pagan, so I do believe in the Greek gods myself so the Moirai are definitely included in that. I am also one of those people who believe heavily in fate, destiny and preordained structure so the idea of three goddesses or sometimes just one or two, makes sense to me. The idea that you are very literally born this way gives me a sense of massive relief - but I’m also not one of those people who will actively go and seek out a psychic who would tell me when I die, no thank you.

I think Fate is a really good thing to live your life by, as a driver to all the things you want to do - but it can also be an excuse to not do anything; so it’s a tricky system. What I have always loved about the Fates in any concept is the idea of the three weaving women, a girl, a pregnant woman and a crone - this idea of the three goddesses within any mythology as a group of sisters or even duplicates of the same being fascinates me. 

So my long answer is I probably do believe in them - yes. I don’t like to believe they’re ready with all of our threads at any time, but it’s just something I have to come to terms with I suppose. They’re also the ultimate unjudging entity - your actions are predetermined by them and they are the writers, meaning that the gods truly do make us anyway they see fit.

I actually have a tattoo of the thread of fate held between the fates on my arm somewhere, but it is a really big nod to my favourite Disney film, which is Hercules to be honest.

But what do you think? Do the Fates continue to spin our destinies? Let me know on Twitter!

OUTRO: 

I really hope you enjoyed this birthday episode - I decided to do the Fates as one collective being and for this anniversary because they are one of my favourite ‘monsters’ and I was desperate to cover them - and what better time to cover something that I want to do than the anniversary and my upcoming date of birth. 

Okay so time for the big reveal and I hope you’re as excited as I am about this but on the 25th March, which is the podcast’s official third birthday - I will be launching Myth Monsters merch! Super exciting, I’ve designed them all myself and I really hope you go and have a look. I’ve even got a discount code for the first week for 20% off anything with MMLAUNCH20. You can find all that at mythmonsters.co.uk on the 25th!

I’m now on a two week break for my sanity but also for my birthday on the 16th and the anniversary on the 25th. But when we come back on the 4th April, we’re heading down under to Australia to look at a monster that 100% did exist at some point, then why are we covering it? Get your cork hats ready to come Thylacine hunting with me when we come back on April 4th.

For now, thank you so much for listening, it’s been an absolute pleasure. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give it a rating on the service you’re listening on - I’ve got the twitter for any questions, or suggestions on what monsters to cover next and I’d love to hear from you. The social media handles for Tiktok, Youtube, Threads and Instagram are mythmonsterspodcast, and twitter is mythmonsterspod. But all of our content can be found at mythmonsters.co.uk - you can also find us on Goodpods, Buymeacoffee and Patreon if you want to help me fund the podcast too.

Come join the fun though and share this with your pals, they might love me as much as you do.

But for now, stay spooky and I’ll see you later babes.